Cooks vs. Servers (the responses...page 3)

...I apologize again to the rest of the professionals in this group...I let my anger get the better of me...I just couldn't stand to hear servers and bartenders berated by my Las Vegas friend....I have seen to many owners/managers with his attitude and have even worked for a few (tho briefly)...I take pride in what I do and do it well, I think I just became a little zealous and small minded when it came to defending my position...

Sincerely,

-D.M. 1/11/00

Just for the record: thanks for the apology, however, If you are referring to me as your "Las Vegas friend", who started this, I suggest you re-read all the posts.

Your attack on this city and your self-aggrandizing statements are the reason I responded in my manner. I suggest you check the trades. You'll find out that Las Vegas is more than steam tables and buffets. We open more gourmet rooms here than anywhere else in the world. In fact, in today's' news it was noted that Las Vegas was one of only four cities in the US to receive multiple five stars for service and cuisine. The two latest being restaurants created by Wolfgang Puck for the Bellagio property.

If you were having a bad day then so be it. We all can be jerks. I just ask that you check your facts before making such a general statement as you made. In the manner of a inebriated lout as well.

By the way...outside of the original posters sig of cooks rule-servers drool, he was making a valid point: He gets a 30-1 ratio of servers to cooks...I get nearly 80-1. As I said, I have over 1500 aps for bartenders on my desk... and we don't open until October.

-F.W. 1/11/00

To whom it may concern,

My "Cooks Rule, Servers Drool" remark should have been accompanied by the infamous " :-) " symbol of a comment made in jest.

It's clear there is a gap between the two camps on who is more valuable - a great cook or a great server. It seems the lines are divided on this issue as they are on most issues - the various backgrounds and life's experiences each of us has gone through to get to the point we are now.

Here's another illustration: When a server gives a 2-week notice, I tend to be mildly concerned about finding a replacement. When a cook gives 2-weeks (or 2-days or 2-minutes or none at all), I am very alarmed. The talent pool for cooks is very shallow. I have my managers go to extreme measures to keep that cook if he/she is in good standing, including an increase that is likely more than what their review cycle would allow.

The debate continues...
-Mark in Ca 1/12/00

Re:  "Unfortunately, the presentation of your position is SO poor and so disrespectful of the other parties to this conversation that your message is lost in your inability to communicate. By and large, the regulars in this group are owners, multi-unit managers and lifers in the industry. We know what we're doing. And what we are NOT doing is swearing at each other, belittling each other or behaving like hourlies"

The ability to communicate. There's an idea that gets thrown around and little practiced on. I found nothing disrespectful about the previous post(s). I found nothing more than someone trying to describe their life experience in this business, neither good nor bad, right or wrong. What I did find was people jumping to conclusions and attaching judgments to those conclusions based on their model of 'how a restaurant should be' or 'who is more important' or 'my way is right'. Somehow being an owner makes us MORE important or more right. 'Being on the front line is even closer to how we should run a business or place importance on' who is more *useful* in an operation. I don't disagree. Your way to run an operation IS right based on your life experiences, the daily fights you've been through, THE servers you've had to deal with and everything that is still unsaid even here.

And yet we talk about communication and simply pay it lip service. "It's unprofessional to belittle people."

How odd EricABpos that I didn't find you belittling on the *front face* of your post, I still found your post belittling to "D"?

You can't not communicate.

From what I can tell is that ALL your views are correct given the experiences you've all had based on the experiences you've had in your realms of deliverance. Deliverance of whatever it is you deliver. I deliver experience to people. A great time to be remembered by all for a very, very, long time. This is simply my model I work from as I know there are hundred's more to go from also. There's profit based, service minded, kitchen is the center of the universe, regulars are the backbone, cut labor, cut food %, etc., etc.

The question is...what does your model do for you and what does his model do for him?

Once you realize that your model is only one of many, the closer you'll be to having more choices about how you want to run an operation. You'll also be closer to understanding why and employee, a boss, an owner, a busboy has the mind-set they do. Step inside their socks and notice WHAT they've been through and soon you'll have discovered that the choices they make are the best choices they could make, based on their experience. You don't have their exact experiences and could probably only guess at best what it's been like to be them, worked with their past trainers, lived in the systems they were brought up in.

Quit giving judgment and begin understanding where they're at, including  here. It might give you a better framework to work from.

My best,

Big Jim 1/17/00

Great Post, Big Jim

-Mark in Ca.  1/18/00

Thanks Mark in Ca, "D" and everyone else for the great thread! It's posts like yours that spawn new ideas and new ways to do old things.

Ain't communicating grand!

take care, : )

Big Jim 1/17/00

(After a 2 month lull, the thread was picked up again by Kevin S.):

There are lots of restaurants that are packed every night of the week with poor to mediocre service. There are hundreds of empty restaurants with a very friendly and efficient server (many times an owner!)....I think that the general public will tolerate mediocre service if the food is great. I
think that you are not likely to get "repeat" business if the food is not
very good. There are exceptions, but being both a cook and a waiter, and a customer, unless the service is REALLY bad on a consistent basis....it is more important that the food be good. 

When was the last time you spit out your food because it was so awful,
and then told yourself "We have to come back here, the service was out of this world"? I have heard many times "You have to try their whateverthedishis. The service was awful, but the whateverthedishis makes it worth it".

 Of course, you do not WANT to give bad service... :)

-Kevin S.  3/12/00

Nice to see this "poll" thread back up here.  One of my original points - one that may have got lost in the fire fight between me and the AGM-turned-bartender - was whenever you read about a restaurant
opening or doing well, 100% of the time the reviewer is reviewing the FOOD first, the ambience next and the service is given a sentence or two. It's the chef (or kitchen) that is truly under scrutiny, every time.

-Mark in Ca 3/13/00

i have to disagree with you kevin.  i think customer service is paramount to building a great restaurant.  i think that the public can tolerate an off night or a dish that they just don't like.  but poor service is a reason never to go back to a restaurant.

-Gre8Scott 3/18/00

Frankly, I won't go back to a restaurant if it has bad food OR bad service...why would I throw my money away on either one? Why would I even have to CHOOSE one when there are plenty of restaurants with good service AND good food?

-Justilbhard 3/18/00

Food vs. Service

Which of the two brings guests into your restaurant?: Great Food, of course. Which of the two is much more likely to keep them from returning: Crappy Service.

Plenty of people endure mediocre to bad service for that one favorite dish. Plenty of other people endure mediocre food because their server abused them somewhere else.

Which is most important to the overall success of a restaurant?: Neither...

When people go out to eat at a traditional, sit-down style restaurant (by
that, I mean to exclude places like McDonald's, Papa John's etc), whether they admit it or not, what they're paying for is An Idea. They're paying for Entertainment Value.

If all they wanted in exchange for their money was nutrients, they would
have indeed gone to McDonald's. Whether people want the best dishes money can buy, and they go to Jean-Louis on the Waterfront, or they want waiters who sing and dance for them, and they go to Joe's Crab Shack, the bottom line is the same - they go to the place where (in THEIR minds) they're going to get what they want for their money.

If your primary goal is to maximize your profits via attracting and
retaining new guests (for some people, it isn't - they just wanna stay solvent enough that they can tinker in a kitchen all day) - then you must sell yourself out...

Jean-Louis will always be economically viable because people know to go there for excellent food. Same for Joe's Crab Shack, except the reason is due to Bright and Shiny service. Again, if your primary goal is to maximize your profits via an enlarged customer base, you will have to expand your Entertainment Value to appeal to the most people possible - you gotta get those Joe Crab Shacker's coming in to Jean-Louis! Have the Maitre'D give out little plastic bibs to people while they wait in the lobby. When the sommelier approaches, would it really hurt to have him do the Hustle?

In all seriousness, though, I've seen and been in the employ of some
restaurants...well, actually just one restaurant... where the food was mediocre to decent, and the service was mediocre to somewhat worse, and the place was on a two-hour wait every night!! How, you ask?? Entertainment Value, I tell ya! The owner made SURE (by spending big bucks on live entertainment, specials, contests, etc) that for the first two months of operation, the place was packed. Mind you, he didn't really give a crap about food OR service, but it didn't matter. Eventually, the establishment in question became THE spot - NFL players would eat there, Senators, etc, and that brought MoRe PeOpLe in which just served to make more celebs visit, which.... well, you see the pattern here.

You know what? When my new place opens, I think I'll change the name to "O.K. Eats... And A Bit Worse Service". But man, will I market the hell out of it.

-Michael S. 3/23/00

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